ghetsuhm ([info]ghetsuhm) wrote,
@ 2008-07-03 11:51:00
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Current mood: amused
Entry tags:feminism

Dear Andrea Dworkin: Piss Off
I'm too old to still be working stuff like this out, I'm sure I am. Most of you know I don't hold no truck with them feminists. There's a lot about 'mainstream' feminism that I find more about proscription than liberation, a list of things you shouldn't do if you're a 'proper' woman. The attitude that if you like particular things or behave in a particular way you've been brainwashed.

Welcome to the Feminist Sex Carnival. I went to Amber Rhea's and read and read and read. Sometimes I cried, because it was the first time I'd ever seen somebody else saying something I thought, this particular something.

If a woman makes a free choice to show her stuff to the world, because she gets off on it or because she wants to be popular or get paid, that is her decision to make. And if you start telling her that she’s not allowed to do that because it might make the patriarchy happy (as a side effect of her happiness), you’re constraining women’s freedom and you end up on the same side as the misogynist puritans.


Anyone who sees female sexuality only in context of how men respond to it, as if it had no existence outside that context, is - intentionally or unintentionally - reinforcing the “women as sex class” paradigm, not subverting it. Seeing any feminist action only in context of its effect on men undermines its feminism by implying that what doesn’t affect men isn’t important.

And, y’know, sex isn’t an invention of Teh Ev0l Patriarchy; it’s just the way human reproduction works. A case can be made, however (historically simplistic, but more logically consistent) , that the stigmatization of sex as dirty, impure, and uncivilized (a stigmatization reinforced by that breed of feminist’s distaste for overt sexuality) is a patriarchal construct.

That’s not a reason to negate sexuality in the name of feminism, it’s a reason to celebrate it.

 

Turns out I'm a Sex-Positive Feminist. Now, I've seen people refer to this disparagingly as 'bikini feminism', to which I can only say: dude, you're the one prescribing how women should dress. I'm the one who thinks feminism should be about freeing women to make their own choices - even if that means wearing tiny skirts, getting pissed, and having casual sex. And no, that doesn't bloody well mean they're 'behaving like men'. That statement prescribes appropriate behaviour for both men and women that does neither gender any favours.

Don't call me brainwashed, Dworkin Devotee: you're the one living your life by something you read in a book. I like porn because I like porn, not because I think I should. Women are, in fact, supposed to NOT like porn. If raunch culture is conformist, how come it's HARDER to stand up and say, I like sex, I like porn, I like MEN, than it is to not?

I wanna do a deal with the mainstream fems, the unifems. We'll get started on correcting men's behaviour to women right after you manage to stop all women using the phrase 'what the hell is she wearing'.




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[info]hungrymama
2008-07-03 01:01 am UTC (link)
Oooh there's some interesting stuff there. I agree that, while things like porn have often been used as 'tools of oppression' (for want of a better phrase) that doesn't make them inherently oppressive.

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[info]lysergica
2008-07-03 06:51 am UTC (link)
Hear, hear. I'm sex positive too. It ensures the continuance of the human race as well as being something enjoyable to pass the time while waiting to watch Iron Chef.

(mtnw)

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[info]sayana
2008-07-03 10:17 pm UTC (link)
Now I'm all ashamed of what I said about Ms Purple Boots at Uni

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[info]ghetsuhm
2008-07-04 12:20 am UTC (link)
I do occasionally feel embarrassed about our attitude to her. It's just, there really was NOTHING defining about her except those boots. Unless you mentioned the boots, nobody knew who you were talking about.

The last time Oliver was down and I went out drinking with him and JL, I did sort of do the full-on wtf is she wearing thing. There was this woman two tables over wearing a backless top, and when she leaned forward, she was so skinny that her vertebrae reminded me of one of those spiky-backed dinosaurs. I felt guilty about that afterwards too. Fun at the time, though.

I'm just boggled by the way some feminists seem to completely ignore the obvious fact that it's women who do the social controlling of women, in the main.

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[info]sayana
2008-07-04 01:13 am UTC (link)
I've always thought that such stuff as make up was used to get the attention of other women, not other men. I mean how often does a man comment on the use of foundation to smooth out blemishes or the way a blush highlights the cheekbones?

I get a lot of comments about the designs I have on my nails, and almost without exception, the comments come from women. There was this one time I was sitting on a long bench seat at a cafe, minding my own business, when a man slid along from the next table, sidled up to me and told me he thought I had great nails... 'Twas a little creepy.

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[info]ghetsuhm
2008-07-04 01:54 am UTC (link)
I was in the hairdressers with Rhiana the other day, and I was flicking through one of those hair magazines. I ran across the quote: "women dress for the same reason the world over - to annoy other women". I can't remember the last time a man noticed what I was wearing.

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[info]hungrymama
2008-07-04 02:51 am UTC (link)
I had A LOT of men notcie what I was wearing the other day when I wore my Mr Spock t-shirt to a Playcentre function. If I ever want to go into the husband stealing business I know what I'll be wearing :-)

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[info]ghetsuhm
2008-07-04 03:09 am UTC (link)
Heh, true, my Joss t-shirt gets attention from men. Not 'wow, black makes you look sallow doesn't it' attention, or even 'hey that makes your tits look big', but 'ooh geeky'.

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[info]hungrymama
2008-07-04 02:49 am UTC (link)
Do men trash eachother and compete with eachother in the same way women do? I've always thought not but I'm sure there's toms of secret bloke stuff I'm not privy to.

I hate how relationships between women are often so difficult and MEAN. I wonder if it's part of/in reaction to some larger social issue. Or at least I'd like to think that it's that rather than that we are all complete cows to eachother because that's just our nature.

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[info]ghetsuhm
2008-07-04 03:08 am UTC (link)
Gay men do it, because I think 'catting' is considered an acceptable part of gay culture where it isn't for straight men.

But it does also seem to be partly biological. "They" did an experiment recently where they gave a group of preschool boys one toy, and the boys tried to yank it off the kid who had it. When they gave one girl in a group a toy, all the other girls banded together and cut her out. So it does seem that yeah, being less physical, girls are meaner.

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[info]sayana
2008-07-04 05:39 am UTC (link)
There is nothing so vicious as a group of teenage girls.

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[info]sayana
2008-07-04 05:41 am UTC (link)
I think it's all down to insecurity. At least, I'm pretty sure that's why I was like that.

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[info]viricapnity
2008-07-04 04:35 pm UTC (link)
Umm, secret bloke stuff. Not really. Unless no one's told me about it. There's all that sitting in the woods banging drums that some 'men' apparently do, but eeew.

We're pretty much obliged to take the piss out of each other, but there's hardly ever any malice in it. And we compete, but it's mostly at games, or who can tell the most outragous lie about how mnay women he's slept with.

We do talk about women's clothes sometimes. The last two I can recall were me telling one of my underlings to tell one of her underlings not to wear a paricular top at work, because there was no way I was going to do it; and a conversation about saucy knickers where one of my mates related the discussion he had with his wife where she asked 'Why would you want me to look like a slut?" We never did manage to work out a usable answer.

Otherwise it's only if it's outstandingly ridiculous, like the rake in the backless dress, but we do that to other men too. I doubled over laughing on Courtenay Place once, when I saw some emo pillock; the only detail I remember is the pink belt and his terribly offended look when I told him I was laughing at him. (He asked).

oh, and the perennial 'is she old enough to wear that?' which is really 'is she old enough for me to ogle her?'

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[info]sayana
2008-07-05 02:43 am UTC (link)
what was the underling wearing that was offensive in a work place?
Inquiring minds want to know.

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[info]viricapnity
2008-07-07 06:18 pm UTC (link)
I wouldn't say offensive. It's just clothes. Large lass, prone to wearing low cut and flimsy tops. I think it's just the cut on this one which shows rather too much cleavage. (About 30 centimetres worth, though obviously I haven't measured).

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[info]miz_evolution
2008-07-04 03:50 am UTC (link)
Here via Amber...great post!

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Men are pretty simple really...
[info]tramp32123
2008-07-06 04:46 pm UTC (link)
They aren't as hung up on a woman's looks as a women. They think sex is pretty neat. They get really confused then they wanna hump their missus and their missus decides that they can't think she's good looking enough to want sex with. They will hump any female, regardless of her body type, as long as she is sexy. Don't mistake sexy as a synonym for good looks - men don't. One of the sexiest women I have ever met was about 5' - in any direction you cared to measure. She ooozed sexiness. At parties the guys gravitated to her, like moths to a flame.

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[info]morgane
2008-07-14 12:43 am UTC (link)
Reason # 1297518243098135908135 why I love you.

'Nuff said.

But I do miss you - and I'm sorry I've not been by more. At least I'm back in the country at the moment and plan on remaining here for more than a week. This is a positive step for me ;-)

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[info]morgane
2008-07-14 12:47 am UTC (link)
PS Is that icon you're using the one which I better remember for the great flash of your fabulous legs?! Because.. damn, girl, you're using the wrong half of it!

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[info]ghetsuhm
2008-07-14 01:17 am UTC (link)
*peers* Yes it is. I'd never considered cutting it to just show the legs.

Previously.

Have now...

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